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Tweak says, "your makin fun of me :("

lissiel (lissiel) wrote,
@ 2009-03-15 20:46:00

Entry tags:

ghei, pictures, politics

Femininity and Gender-Expression: The Teal Deer
So, Cal made a post a few days ago about gender-expression and naturalization in the context of role-play. I didn't comment there, because it didn't seem appropriate to a post that was mostly talking about one person's individual feelings on the subject? But I've been thinking a lot about what xie said, and I think I'd like to tl;dr about it as well, a little bit.

One of Cal's main conclusions, as I understood it, was that xie's uncomfortable with a femme gender-expression that's been naturalized to the point of being taken for granted. Girls who just assume that women will HAVE to act girly, because that's just what girls DO. And that was a distinction that...I was aware of? But had never really thought about closely enough, because I fully, 100% agree with hir. It's not a panic response, or anything, but I find it distasteful in the extreme and somewhat ignorant. Which is weird, in light of how very very different our feelings are about the performance of femininity.

For me, the performance of femininity--either in it's heavily fetishized sense of six-inch heels and glitter dresses, or in more naturalistic expressions like jeans and a cute sweater--is tied heavily to the experience of pleasure. Femininity, to me, is soft fabrics and rich colors and sweet scents and so on. Sense-pleasure, in almost any form, is coded feminine to me. (As an aside, I need to remember that this is not the case for everyone; people who prefer masculine or gender-neutral expressions are not "missing out" and I should not let the vague sense that they are cause me to act like a dick. Doing so is all too easy for me, unfortunately.) Unsurprisingly, given the aesthetic viewpoint I come from here, I tend to think of femininity as somewhat inherently artistic, artificial. It's something you paint on, it's a costume, a disguise, a brilliant and beautiful act.

And this act isn't limited to female-bodied or even female-gendered persons. I really LIKE drag, even Priscilla: Queen of the Desert-style outrageous drag (I like women in that kind of drag too. <3 Talk about performance.) I like the harem-boy archetype--boys in kohl, men who wear masks, assassins. Liars. I like people being utterly unashamed of their own pleasure--sexual and non--and of being a source of pleasure to others. I like when pleasure isn't tied to a loss of power, but can instead be a source of it.

I do not like women (characters) who only have their looks going for them, or think they do. I don't like men (or women) who are feminized to humiliate them, or are made less by feminine traits. I don't like the sense from any direction that any given person HAS to be any one way, or even has to be the same way at all times. Fluid gender expression is hot. Femininity is hot. Not being a dick is also hot. And I'm out.

And now, to make up for the tl;dr, have a pic of Finn begging at the picnic I had with my family this morning. <3

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	regicidaldwarf 2009-03-16 01:15 am UTC (link)
	I could think about this a lot and give a detailed expression of my own opinion on the matter. Or I could just say "Yes, this." and leave it at that. :P Also awwwwww Finn why so adorable. x3 (Reply to this) (Thread)

	lissiel 2009-03-16 09:04 am UTC (link)
	I would be interested to hear what you had to say, if you felt like it? Because the more adorable he is, the more of my breakfast (and everyone else's) he gets to eat? Lol. I love that dog so much. <3 (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	regicidaldwarf 2009-03-17 12:30 am UTC (link)
	I might, but I have a final and a paper due tomorrow so I don't know that I'll have time to give it real thought until after finals week. :P ALSO hey are we still on for hanging out over break? I was thinking I could probably make it into SF Friday the 27th if so. :) (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	lissiel 2009-03-17 12:33 am UTC (link)
	Sure--you still want to come to my place? M has to go to seattle for a couple of days, so I was worrying, but he should totally be back by then. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	regicidaldwarf 2009-03-17 12:36 am UTC (link)
	Definitely! :D I guess we can discuss timing things later when I have a better idea how I'd be getting there etc. Totally looking forward to it though :D (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	lissiel 2009-03-17 12:37 am UTC (link)
	Sure, that's fine. You still have my phone number, right? Also--what kinds of food do you like? I know you said you can't eat ginger, right? Was there anything else? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	regicidaldwarf 2009-03-17 12:41 am UTC (link)
	Hmm, I'm usually pretty easy to please. :P No ginger, nothing too spicy, other than that I'm usually good. And yeah, I've still got your number. It ends in 4111, right? (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

	lissiel 2009-03-17 12:44 am UTC (link)
	Yep, that's it. :) (Reply to this) (Parent)

callitropsis
2009-03-16 09:18 am UTC (link)

That's really fascinating, and I'm glad you posted this! I think probably because femininity is such a fraught issue for me, I'm often on the lookout for ways to understand it outside of the unpleasant power/objectification lens, so this is really neat to think about. (Your art is often good for me in this sense, too -- I'm thinking especially of the mother figures in your goddess series, being so comfortable and calm and bountiful.)

Also aaawwww lookit him, so fluffy! ♥

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lissiel
2009-03-16 09:31 am UTC (link)

That makes me really happy to hear. There's so much negativity in our culture surrounding females and femininity...it's important to me, in my own creative things, to try and reflect this viewpoint, instead of the more mainstream ones. It. Seems strange to say I'm glad that it's a fraught issue for you, too? But I'm glad that it's one you think about--you've really caused me to think through my own stance on women and female characters a lot since we've started talking, and it's something I really appreciate. <3

I. I think this is what I was trying to say the last time you brought these kinds of issues up--with the fic rec, and my somewhat muddled comments at the time. Just, you know, drag queen/tom boy seemed like a good way to highlight the performative, choosing aspects of the dynamic, and the pleasure/enjoyment/power potentially involved? But I said it really poorly. I still feel kind of bad about what a dick I ended up being. :/

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callitropsis
2009-03-16 12:05 pm UTC (link)

♥ Please don't feel bad! I am often bad at explaining where my issues come from, and I know they're very personal to my own experience, and -- yeah, with this context I can definitely see how your response to that story would have been so much more positive than mine, and I think I can at least sort of get my head around it a little better.

And I don't think you were a dick at all, at any point in the conversation.

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(Anonymous)
2009-03-16 11:40 am UTC (link)

Not sure what you mean by: the teal deer. Anyway, so there was this article yesterday about sarah palin's daughter and her fiance spitting up (girl who was forced to have baby). So, after I read this predictable article I read the comments section where people respond to the article. Along with the: why didn't she/they use birth control?, there was: hey girls. its YOUR BODY. isn't that what you feminists always wanted us to know? so how about you take care of YOUR BODY and don't get pregnant. It was something along those lines, as well as: thank god I've never gotten a woman preganant. I'm not ready for that. That kind of writing is scary to me because it makes it look like guys don't want to have kids or get married or anything. I know thats not all the way true but, it could be for a lot of guys. Also, last week when I responded to this video about that sopranos (tv show) and the characters(guys) who always cheated and some guy wrote back that he thought guys weren't programmed for one partner. This guy also believed in sex is just sex and that you can cheat on your girlfriend and still love her. That type of talk about cheating plus my personal experience always reiles me up.

Besides that, Fin is cute in this pic. I agree. You should see the pic of my baby (my cat scouter) that my dad sent me. Pardon me for the long response.
--Greta

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lissiel
2009-03-16 01:40 pm UTC (link)

Teal deer is a phonetic (sort of) reading of tl;dr, which stands for "too long; didn't read". It's supposed to be kind of absurd; making fun of yourself a bit for taking things really seriously and talking about them at length.

1. If she's known about and had access to birth control, then it would be a valid question to ask why she didn't use it. As is, I find the question somewhat facetious and also inappropriately blaming the girl for a mistake both parties made.

2. Feminists are not all against teen pregnancy, actually. Feminists merely claim that women (of any age) should have the right and resources to make decisions about her own body. Whether or not that was the case here, I don't know--nor do I really care. Women are autonomous human beings well capable of making decisions about their own lives without men, "feminists", or anyone else telling them what to do.

3. Lots of men want a family and a wife they're monogamous with and children. Honestly and desperately want that. Lots of men decide that they don't, and either they're honest with their partners about it (and there are a lot of women who don't feel the need for monogamy either, btw) or they lie to their partners and are assholes (and probably making excuses, like the sopranos guy). And lots of boys know that they may want a family and all someday and that they're not ready for it just yet. Men are human beings as varied in wants and abilities as women.

4. Why yes, Finn is adorable. <3 I would love to see Scouter.

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(Anonymous)
2009-03-16 09:43 pm UTC (link)

Funny. I think its weird that there are still teens out there who get themselves pregnant. Its so strange. You would think that people had heard by now how not to have that happen. Thats why I think the Palin girl was forced to have the kid once she was discovered. I think women should have choices with their own bodies and that some people should exercise caution. That guy who commented on my comment on the sopranos video was such a pig. I can't isolate sex/love. Not possible. How can there be women who don't believe in monogamy? I guess I believe that women are more able to achieve that state then guys are. Where do you fall in this belief? I want someone to belong to me and only be mine. I have thought about the children thing and I'm sure it will happen eventually. I still don't know that much about men. Grr. Such a novice. I know what I like though, personality wise from guys.I will have to bring over my computer sometime to show you pics of scouter. I don't know how to forward pics to someone. Are you going down to carmel valley at any time during the break? Maybe we could hang out then. Also, I might come back up on the last saturday before school starts, so we could also meet together then.
--Greta
Here is what the guy who commented back on the sopranos said: I think basic male genetics and psychology is geared towards having multiple partners. A man can compartmentalize sex and love. Sex is sometimes just sex. I can love a woman and just have sex for the sake of having sex with another. It does not mean that I do not love the woman that I love. Obviously, its not fair to a spouse all the same. But saying that a cheating man no longer loves or respects his woman is not always true. Thats a purely feminized interpretation.

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lissiel
2009-03-16 09:53 pm UTC (link)

Sexual exclusiveness isn't necessarily an indicator of love for either sex (though I find this guy's biological and psychological argument somewhat in doubt--as though his particular view is universal and unavoidable in men, which clearly it is not). It's fully possible to love more than one person at a time, and to have sex with people for reasons other than romantic love. For instance, I personally would honestly not care if michael slept with someone else, provided he was upfront and honest with me about it and didn't put either my health/safety or our relationship at risk with it (by stopping spending time with me, or using her as a reason to not work out a problem between us, for instance). I would be very insulted if someone were to intimate that this view makes my love for him somehow lesser than a love that needs to possess and control the beloved.

Concerning cheating, though--I'd suggest that someone willing to lie to their partner and make choices they know will hurt their partner should seriously consider whether that counts as loving or respectful behavior. I just think it's important to be clear that not every instance of sex outside of a relationship involves either lying or hurting your partner. And, of course, neither set of behaviors is exclusively tied to one sex/gender.

Seriously, men are people. Women are people. They're not fundamentally different. I really think you'd have an easier time with them if you'd just forget about trying to interact with a gender and think of them as people first.

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(Anonymous)
2009-03-16 11:27 pm UTC (link)

I don't need to control or possess someone I love. I just can't take cheating. It hurt me too bad and sometimes it still bothers me. I just want someone to be mine because they want to be. If they want to sleep with someone else, they should break up with me first. Its just too painful. To me, cheating means that you don't care and you like to lord your control and your ability to cheat over someone else. Some guys like Robert/Baird/Matt are easy to get along with. They don't make me nervous. Other guys do make me feel nervous because I don't know them and I don't know their intentions. I don't believe in open relationships and I want what my parents have. They still have tickle fights after 30-some years of marriage. I need to know someone is mine and that they love me for me. If they cheat its because either they aren't good enough.
--Greta

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lissiel
2009-03-17 12:24 am UTC (link)

And that's a perfectly valid way to feel. There are a lot of men out there who would agree with you about wanting that.

I can understand your feelings on cheating, in light of what you went through. I can't imagine a relationship for you that would be healthy and make you happy and still include sex or romantic attachments outside of that relationship. I just. I think it's important to recognize that not everyone feels that way, and that that's not less than your feelings or invalid because you feel differently, yeah?

Michael and I have a very, very strong relationship. We love each other deeply, have a great deal of trust in and respect for each other--because we love each other, and the other person's happiness is always our primary concern. I can say without a shred of doubt that michael loves me for me--but I would be very uncomfortable talking about him being "mine" or "belonging only to me". Those two aren't the same statement.

I'm not sure, when you say that you don't believe in open relationships, whether you mean personally you wouldn't want one or that you think they're bad or invalid in general (it sounds like you think they would preclude tickle-fights or thirty years of commitment, though I could be mis-reading you). The first I totally support, but the second reads as judgmental and somewhat biased--and insulting.

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(Anonymous)
2009-03-17 01:22 am UTC (link)

I was just talking about the way I see my parents in love with each other. None of what I wrote was supposed to be insulting. I was just saying that thats what I would prefer for a relationship. I was not saying anything bad towards what you believe or said before. I was just running off of my own thoughts and feelings towards my self. What did you mean when you wrote this:" I can understand your feelings on cheating, in light of what you went through. I can't imagine a relationship for you that would be healthy and make you happy and still include sex or romantic attachments outside of that relationship. I just. I think it's important to recognize that not everyone feels that way, and that that's not less than your feelings or invalid because you feel differently, yeah?" I am glad that you and mike have a strong relationship. Thats great. I think hes a pretty good guy. Its hard to explain what I say when I mean I want someone to be mine. What I meant was that I wanted someone who wouldn't cheat and would be faithful and respect me. I didn't mean I wanted him to tattoo my name on his forehead or anything like that. I just want exclusivity. I want someone to be reliable and dependable to me. I don't want an open romantic relationship because that would make me jealous/hurt/have some kind of bad feeling. No I don't think that a 30-year relationship would be without tickle fights. What I meant by that is that when my parents have these teenage moments together, it shows me that they love each other very much and depend on each other. I am not sure why you would find this insulting. From my experience, my parents have a relationship that I idolize in someway and want for myself. Also, my grandparents still spontaneously dance to music that they like or hear on the radio. They will just come together and dance. Thats love that no one can come between. I have seen some of what I want. I want that because it looks nice to me. I really wasn't trying to point out anything that was wrong with you or anybody else that you know.
--Greta

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lissiel
2009-03-17 01:40 am UTC (link)

I don't find it insulting that your parents have teenaged moments--that's cute, and I agree with you that it sounds like a nice love. The idea that a relationship that didn't include exclusivity couldn't have that kind of sweetness is kind of insulting, only in that it implies that non-exclusive relationships are not as good. That's all.

I understand where you're coming from, and I don't think you're wrong. I'd just like to point out that people who have other views on relationships are as valid as yours. Even if they disagree with you. Different people can want different things without one of them being wrong or not as good.

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(Anonymous)
2009-03-17 02:01 am UTC (link)

I have trouble with seeing gray in between the black and white. I can't help but say that I believe in having a totally different relationship then my last one and that is why I have been stating the whole exclusivity thing. Its just me saying what I want. I guess I don't understand the idea of open relationships because it was hurtful to me and I have seen it hurt other people as well (for example Claudia). I know you have had different experiences then I have had. I have trouble understanding what I haven't gone through. I can only try to imagine what I haven't gone through. People can have different opinions, they just need to explain them to me. Thats all. Its a bit abstract to me. I know what I like and there are certain things about me that I can't change or that I must work very hard to change. Believe me. My mom tries to tell me all the time to think in a different way or try to put myself in someone elses shoes. What about non-exclusivity could be sweet. Please give me more examples or another kind of explanation so I can understand what you mean. If you want to finish your comments in email that is fine too. I just need more examples.
--Greta

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	lissiel 2009-03-17 09:06 am UTC (link)
	You don't have to understand it. You just have to accept that other people's feelings are as valid for them as yours are for you. (Reply to this) (Parent) (Thread)

(Anonymous)
2009-03-17 03:49 pm UTC (link)

Ok. I'm not sure how this turned into a semi-argument, but I don't like people mad at me. When I was saying my stuff, I was talking about me me me. I wasn't pointing out that you or anyone else was wrong to believe what you believe. This wasn't an attack and I wasn't condemning behavior. I was saying that I was selfish and wanted to keep others for myself. I didn't say that everyone should only believe what I believe. Please don't take it the wrong way. Sorry if I seemed to be pointing out any type of perceived problem/flaw.

You're my friend and I want to keep it that way.
--Greta

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lissiel
2009-03-17 05:14 pm UTC (link)

I'm not mad at you at all, and we are totally friends. I just--there are a lot of people who DO think that what's right for them has to be right for everyone, and I wasn't clear if you were saying that or not. And I wanted you to acknowledge that other people can feel differently and still not be 'wrong', is all.

And even if you DIDN'T want to acknowledge that, well, we could disagree and still be friends, tay? We're totally cool.

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	(Anonymous) 2009-03-17 05:46 pm UTC (link)
	I am not sure how to respond. I like what I like and other people like different things then I do. Lets not have an unfriendly discussion any more. I'm used to having discussions with my family where its not insulting to have certain view points and it doesn't offend people. Everyones different though. Did you like my baby boy (cat Scouter)? --Greta (Reply to this) (Parent)